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Report 345
Report #345 Skillset: Tracking Skill: Pit/Spikepit/Snakepit Org: Ur'Guard Status: Rejected Dec 2010 Furies' Decision: We do not find this to be necessary Problem: Pits are too impacting in combat. Climb rocks was a nice thought, but at 6 seconds (4s escape, 2s bal loss) after initial loss from hitting pits it's largely useless to avoid instakills or uncounterable beating, particularly when you can just spam conceal to reconceal the moment they escape (giving you a 2s window to do so before they can move). Solution #1: Remove spike/snakepits. Allow pits to function as a mini timeout for a player, so if someone hits a pit they fall into the pit same as before, except that they cannot hit OR be hit while in a pit- climb out time ~4s. Solution #2: Remove pits so other traps can be buffed as most of the others are ineffectual Solution #3: Limit pits to have only the tracker be able to attack a person in their pit Player Comments: ---on 10/20 @ 00:57 writes: How about they be changed so that only the person who lays pits can hit the person in the pit (snake pit and spike pit included)? That way the pits lose their group gank quality, but still remain viable for a tracker to use in 1 on 1 combat. ---on 10/24 @ 07:55 writes: Skill such as crucify come to mind as similar in this aspect requiring a bit less setup but a similar state of being unable to avoid instakills or uncounterable beating. Certainly not the only skill that opens up such opportunities, but is an appropriate counterexample for the listed problem. Basic idea is that pits certainly aren't alone in this category. ---on 10/30 @ 06:16 writes: I wouldn't consider pits and crucify to be in the same category: sure they have similarities, but pits can be extended across an entire area where crucify requires one to be in the same room. Additionally, crucify requires power while pits doesn't (comm costs, however!). ---on 11/1 @ 00:16 writes: Sure, I'm not saying both skills are exactly the same (they're not, obviously), the problem, however, attempts to address pits where instakills or unavoidable beatings are concerned in which case crucify would qualify as a comparable skill in the particular situation. ---on 11/6 @ 20:02 writes: I still think you're stretching it quite a bit, so much so, that you'd have to throw in quite a few other skills. Aeon, choke, grapple spam, barrier, carcer, blocking, walls, etc. Anything that can prevent one from leaving the room, essentially. I think that's too far. Crucify isn't triggered by forced movement or even movement. Pits are. Pits reactivly keep a person stationary by triggering when one attempts to leave the room. Crucify proactivly keeps a person in the room, but requires the necromancer to activate it at the ideal time. Let's not forget that pits work off an enemy list while crucify requires targeting. I'm merely saying that it's a slippery slope if you wish to blur the definite lines to include them in the same category. ---on 12/8 @ 07:26 writes: I like Geb's idea- added as solution 3 ---on 12/11 @ 10:29 writes: A question: What would Trackers have (that is useful) if pits are removed like this? Regarding Solution 1, what's stopping someone from just sitting in there and not climbing out? I think regardless of what happens to pits though, the other traps should be buffed so they are viable choices, other than wastes of commodities - are they even reuseable like pits are? ---on 12/17 @ 05:39 writes: I like solution 3 here. Curious as to what these planned buffs mentioned in solution 2 are. ---on 12/20 @ 15:33 writes: In essence, this report calls for an unnecessary change. It has been proven time and again that while pits are powerful, it certainly does not create an unescapeable situation with the advent of climb rocks as the victim within the pit is free to act defensively within the pit without interrupting the climb. In addition, any elevation change easily avoids pits as I, myself, have been able to escape on more occasions than not while fighting against trackers. The argument of it being too significant against instakills is essentially moot as in a situation with just a tracker and a pit, the victim will always have a chance to climb out and hinder any decapitation attempt before it completes (even with a snake pit trap or spiked pit trap). In group combat, pits will only ever hit a single person, meaning any allies could hinder the timed instakill with ease. ---on 12/21 @ 20:50 writes: To say pits only ever hit a single person in group combat is correct, but misleading. In group versus group within the same room, pits are not a problem. Pits become a problem because they can very easily (too easily) turn the combat situation from group versus group to group versus one, without the one being able to escape except for changing elevation. They trigger on evade, tumble, somersault, pogo stick, gust, normal walking, leap, barrelroll, airpike, etc. Solution 3 is my first pick, followed by solution 2 depending on what Ixion has in mind. ---on 12/22 @ 07:16 writes: What if you just change what types of movement trip pits, like what report 504 is doing with RainbowClouds? ---on 12/22 @ 19:21 writes: If you're talking about a single person being pushed into a group then you have many skills that offer that outside of pits including, but not limited to, perfect fifth, barrier, blocking, waylay into a truss, crucify, web, knocking the person off equilibrium/balance, engage, carcer, enthall, etc the list becomes rather extensive. A number of these will prevent tumbles/pogos from starting as well and will limit movement for the same amount of time (if not more) than climbing out of a pit. Also, Raeri, the difference between Rainbowclouds and pits are that the clouds are cast once for a demesne and will passively follow the mage wherever they move, however, pits have to be placed in each room in each direction at a 4.0 sec balance loss per pit to be effective (significant commodity cost nonwithstanding), it's a significantly slower process and thus should carry some additional benefit. ---on 12/26 @ 16:29 writes: Nydekion is very wrong on this. Pits both stop you from leaving and from doing anything useful while you're in them, and take a whopping 6 seconds to break, which can be cancelled and -completely reset- by just about any hindering in the book (a single web in the last few seconds of climbing out will keep someone helpless in the pit for 7-8 seconds longer), unless you spend 3p for climb rocks (which will still take you 6 seconds to climb out and does nothing to stop you from tripping the same exact pit which can be immediately concealed once you walk out). My preference is solution 2, but if solution 1 or 3 is taken, make sure to include a 'phase' effect on pits so that the pitted person's passives will freeze while in the pit. Otherwise, it will possible to use friendly pits as protection for mages and bards. ---on 12/29 @ 09:33 writes: Solutions #1 and #3 are useless. I strongly disagree with any changes to pits unless Tracking gets seriously reviewed. Most of the other traps serve little purpose and the reports on fixing the hunting companion have done nothing. If this was an ability that one organization possessed, I can see why there would be complaints. However, like PerfectFifth, it is shared by every organization and like Nydekion states, many of those abilities he listed can hinder and prevent you from leaving or doing anything useful. ---on 12/29 @ 09:36 writes: Oh. To make it my previous comment more clear: I am not so subtly implying that I would agree with Solution #2 (if the admin are willing to give Tracking a serious look). ---on 12/29 @ 23:08 writes: I support solution 3. It does not make pits useless, and in response to Nydekion and Inagin: there are similarities, yes, but this problem focuses on specifics not shared so generally. Blurring the lines makes it seem like the other things fit in too, but I think the problem clearly points to pits, not other skills that, with sweeping generalizations, are similar. ---on 12/30 @ 08:08 writes: I get the feeling Solutions 1 and 3 as listed could be abused and turn out be even more obnoxious than the current iteration of pits. Solution 2, so long as the other traps get reviewed *before* pits are actually taken out. ---on 12/31 @ 20:52 writes: Raeri, solution 1 is similar to maze while solution 3 only changes who can hit the person in the pit. Both exist in the game and are preferable to the current pits.